Erin Davis: Welcome to REAL TIME, the Canadian Real Estate Association podcast for realtors, and we're all about issues that impact Canadian real estate and you. I'm your host Erin Davis, nice to have you here and today we're bringing it all home. Last year, the COVID-19 pandemic quickly underscored the importance of "home" as refuge, and we saw Canadians making their nests a larger priority shifts in the types of homes purchased and a boom and renos, realtors also responded and experienced the impact of this change in prioritization firsthand.
In this episode of REAL TIME, we're going to dig into this change and look at how it's affecting the way homes are designed, marketed, and experienced as a whole. We're so grateful to have with us a man who's best known to Canadians for his TV career spending over 20 years on HGTV life network and CBC TV, Steven Sabados, a household name paired with his late partner, Chris Hyndman.
Today, the S&C product line sales internationally, and now Steven Sabados with his very own highly personal and dynamic product line takes inspiration from his own artwork, sculpture, and photography, and he joins us to share those visions and his own perspective today. Steven, what a pleasure to start out a new year with you here. I know that you've been designing homes and spaces for nearly three decades. Pandemic aside, and we wish that was literal, have you ever witnessed anything like we did last year with such a collective emphasis on the whole idea of home?
Steven Sabados: Yes, Wow. Sadly, we have. I think after the devastating tragedy of 9/11, the world looked at travel through a whole new lens and then as a society, we started to look at our homes as becoming our place of sanctuary and that's where the term ‘cocooning’ I think was embraced and even quiet from back then because I've never heard of the word cocooning before until then. We started really coming in and we really looked at our home as not only a place to live, but it was a place that we could escape to feel safe.
It was our sanctuary.
Instead of travel, I think, as a nation even, we were starting to put our hard-earned dollars into renovation. Maybe instead of going South, maybe we installed the pool in the backyard or recreation areas, entertaining areas, great rooms were becoming more and more popular at homes because we were entertaining a lot that we were having our friends or family over back then we could, and even, I think networks like HGTV were booming with programs so that we could help ourselves be more knowledgeable and educated on renovations and decorating and repair and that's where that big DIY revolution was born. Everyone was DIY.
Erin: Yes, and you talk about swimming pools. My sister tried to buy a hot tub and it was like a waitlist forever. You think she wanted a custom-built Tesla or something, just crazy, cocooning indeed. Our homes had to be a lot of things for us last year. What does the home of 2021 look like to you, Steven?
Steven: I think, personally, we're going to be dealing with COVID realities for quite some time and our homes will have to remain flexible to include a multitude of activities. We're going to reevaluate how our house is being used. Things like those formal dining rooms, and I'm doing air quotes for that there's "formal dining rooms", which they're going to be a thing of the past because they're going to be converted into workspaces, play areas and especially, I think now even more important, those big dining rooms are going to become classrooms if you have a large family.
I think we're going to become less focused on the aesthetics and we're going to gravitate to function and the big word comfort. We're in our homes. We want to be comfortable. That's why comfort furniture, all that stuff is more and more popular. I think if we're in our home, Erin, as well, I don't know about you, but I think so many people that you're in your homes, you start looking around and you start, what do you do? You start organizing because if our place is clean and organized, our head is clean and organized.
Personally, for me, as soon as we went into our first lockdown last year, I started opening cupboards, well I’ve got this time, why not do it? And it's interesting because you see reflection and there was a big boom on the TV shows on Tidying Up with Marie Kondo and getting organized with the Home Matters. All these TV shows were grasping on it. That'd be like, hang on, wait a minute. We can then give you more inspiration to tidy and clean.
Erin: Absolutely. People were so shocked when they were clearing out all their closets and then finding out that the donation bins had been closed because of COVID too. Somewhere in a lot of garages and basements, there's a lot of clothes we're not wearing anymore. Just waiting for a chance to donate them, right?
Steven: Absolutely, yes.
Erin: Now, kitchens and bathrooms, they've always been the place to invest. Is this changing at all as far as you can see?
Steven: I don't think so. If we start with kitchens, kitchens are becoming, I think, more and more important to ground us as a family. It's where we're going to nurture ourselves. We're going to entertain our own family or our new bubbled family which is a new term. I think the kitchen's always going to remain the heart of the home. It's the place where we're experimenting and cooking, but doing Zoom classes and things of that nature. There was a really interesting stat that I found that the Zoom app, whatever, was skyrocketing, it's enormous, it's now valued at $139 billion. There that's more than Exxon.
Erin: Oh, my gosh.
Steven: I didn't even know what Zoom was.
Erin: While we're on the topic of Zoom, Steven, you've undoubtedly seen a lot of Zoom calls and stuff. Maybe at some point, we can talk about some tips for simplifying your background if you're going to be doing like a show or something where you're going to be seen by other people because there's even Rate my Room now, you've seen that, right? Where people on Zoom, they're being judged by what's on the wall behind them.
Steven: That's so funny. It is very interesting because not only now are we being so conscious of what we're wearing or maybe what our hair looks like and make sure our face is powdered, not shiny. Now we're worried about, oh my God, what's behind me. When it is true, I think there's going to be this influx of staging what's behind you so that you can have your real or fake diploma, whatever you proudly displayed or a piece of artwork or an environment that's going to suit you.
I think that that's going to be a bit of a weird phenomenon, but it's going to be a thing. Also, while we're on that point as well, there was a really interesting ad campaign that I found about dressing for success from the waist up and it wasn't a great concept, because it was from TikTok. I found that really cool, it's literally you're going to have your fantastic strong business suit on male or female and look fantastic, but who cares what trousers does you have, what shoes you have? As long as from the waist up, you're looking great, that's all that matters. That's funny, isn't it?
Erin: It is and just between you and me, I actually did a Zoom meeting with a blazer over a nightgown and a necklace on. It was just, like, you don't need to know that these are my sleep clothes. I'm looking okay with the jacket, the necklace. Thank you.
Steven: That's brilliant.
Erin: More with Steven Sabados, Designer and Partner in the S&C product line in a moment. Enjoying REAL TIME? Well, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts for monthly episodes with amazing guests, such as TV icon, Sarah Richardson, award-winning author Jesse Thistle, Canadian broadcast and ad legend, Terry O'Reilly, and many more. They're timely and timeless so dig in and enjoy. Back to the house, finished basements, defining spaces. What other changes are you seeing that as we move into, not just focusing on kitchens and bathrooms, where else are we going in the house, Steven?
Steven: Basements, I think, are the perfect place to define any activity. Obviously, if you have a basement and I've got a few friends right now that are looking to dig down their basement now to extend their home because they need more space for the family.
Basements, I think, are the most obvious and perfect place for like play areas for kids, gyms, exercise rooms but the big influx right now, you're going to see in basements, not only just to gain more space, but it's going to be a home theater and that's going to be a big selling factor. Again, another really interesting staff stat I found, which was mind-boggling for me, large home theater, TV sales with a 65-inch port plus were up 77% since this time last year.
Erin: Oh, you're kidding.
Steven: Yes, we're sitting down, we're getting comfy, we're watching TV. We can't go to the theater, right? Why not create one in our home and make it as luxurious as we can and that's where we're obviously our audiovisual set up is going to be key and then furniture sales from there. The only thing I did want to say when we're talking about basements, because people say, "Oh, I've got a basement. I could just put my home office there."
I personally don't think that a basement is a place for a home office. You think about there and what you're going to do. You're getting ready in the morning, you've got all stuff, you're feeling great, you're all refreshed. Then you go downstairs, you're burrowing. There's maybe minimal windows, maybe no window, do you know what I mean? We're now hibernating. We're going underground.
It's going to pull our energy down. If you can I think have your home office above ground with natural light but if you do have to go to a basement level to work, what have you, make sure you have either fantastic lighting. There's a lot of lights that you can switch on to daylight, those energizing lights. We've all seen them. Really think of that because nothing's worse than sitting beside a 25-watt bulb trying to be productive in the corner beside the washer and dryer.
Erin: Yes, definitely. Cocooning but not burrowing and hibernating. There is a definite difference. Thank you for pointing that out.
Steven: Huge difference.
Erin: Right. Okay. Outside space, it's also key. How can we make a small yard or a balcony, which is a reality for so many people feel like a retreat, Steven?
Steven: Wow and I'd be looking forward to spring, we already. I would say plant as much you can. Surround yourself with greenery as much as possible. My big trick for even my patio what I do is I have large, large planters. My planters are 24 inches high, then you're going to plant at least a 5-foot tree in there. Now, your tree is going to be seven feet. The reason I'm saying that is plant them in large part is because, subconsciously, you're grounded when you're under a tree or you're under foliage. If you're sitting in a lawn chair and you have a tree over top of you, it just gives you this comfort feel like that Mother Nature is giving you a hug.
I think that's nice. We can all visualize what that may look like, Also, I don't know about you but herb gardens. It's so necessary. Because I think what you do have in your garden, you feel compelled to use them and cook for. If it's sitting there, you're like, wow, I've got a lot of basil there. Let's maybe make some pesto today. It does inspire you. I think it's just, again, a subconscious nod but it's going to then give you the reason to cook more. Also, if we're talking about Mother Nature like abundance of bird feeders. Flowers that attract butterflies. We're nurturing mother earth.
Oh, other thing too, what I have on my patio which everyone loves is the water feature. You know what? The sound of running water greatly improves your psychological and physical health. That's a study, that's a stat, but also, I like it because I live downtown and it literally drowns out the hum of the city as just recycled water going through an urn but it bubbles and it makes all sorts of fantastic sounds. That's all you really focus on, is the sound of water which is very, very good for you.
Erin: Nice, a different kind of white noise. Very, very nice, yes.
Steven: A very positive one. Sure, yes.
Erin: Renovations and reconfigurations aside. Now, Steven, how can we use things like decor to keep our homes fresh?
Steven: Very interesting. This one is really based on a big trend as well, biophilia. Biophilia started as a trend before 2020 and it's going to be one of the number one trends for 2021 and moving into 2022. Biophilia, basically, If you use a dictionary term, is basic premise is to connect the natural environment to the built environment through the use of natural materials and nature. Now, that sounds all mumbo jumbo, but basically, what that means is that we're using plants and design and decor to energize us. Things like architecture using living walls.
Erin: For those people who don't know what a living wall is, Steven, can you describe that, give an example?
Steven: Living wall is fantastic. It used to be a thing where it was just mostly in commercial spaces. Basically, a living wall is a structure that you can put up and you can actually plant on a wall. The wall becomes actually alive. There's pockets to hold dirt and the plants will actually grow. There are some retail places there that you can actually get them and hang them on your own wall or even on a patio. You can put plants in there and they will hold the soil and not leak all over your floor, obviously.
You can mist them and again, plants that maybe are easier or maintenance free in the sense that they don't require a ton of water. It's mostly, like I said, you see it in large commercial buildings and hotels and things like that, but bring it into your own home. It's a great way to just supply your air with oxygen and really to energize a space and give it the fantastic organic uncontrolled chaos.
Erin: Well, what else can we do to create a more calm and organized environment?
Steven: Well, we touched on the cluttering. Donate is going to pass on good fortune as well. If we're talking about good fortune as well, I think one of the biggest things to create an organized and calming environment is to do some research on the principles of Feng Shui. Feng Shui basically, is an ancient philosophy that seeks to find balance between elements. It's about positive energy flow in your surroundings. It's about moving Chi and Chi is energy. Everything has energy. Our home has energy. We have energy and in your home you don't want the Chi to be too fast or you don't want it to be stagnant. That's stagnant Chi.
It's about furniture placement and the configuration to optimize the positive energy and to keep it flowing in your home. I think it's fun because if you do look at a lot of it, is very common sense in a way like putting this chair here or that. I think it's one of those fun things that gets you research. It's about north, west, east, south, and things like that but it's also sometimes it makes sense. If you move your furniture around, just give it a try.
You can always move your furniture back. If you find there is a difference, maybe not even tell anyone. Maybe if you have a busy home, do this and just see how your house reacts to it. I don't know, but again, I would say if it's essentially old and it works like yoga. Yoga basically is about moving energy in our body. Why can't we move energy in our home?
Erin: Right, why not? Try it for a New Year. Now, you mentioned the directions and it pulled my heart a little bit because I know I wanted a globe for Christmas. Travel, just spin it, find me a place I want to go there in my head. Travel may still be difficult for part of this year. Who knows how long? How can we bring the world home to us? Steven, you've been so great about bringing the outside in. How do we bring the great outside the rest of the world into our homes?
Steven: Well, I would say travel's about escaping your everyday routine. That's why we travel because we want our senses to be excited. We want to experience all of this. I think if we break down the senses and think about how to inject some of those into our environment. For me, personally, I don't know about you, but I love traveling to exotic tropical places. If we're going to break that down and that philosophy and again, you can plug this in, whatever tropical places. Brighter, vibrant colours. Maybe paint a room in a warm yellow. Bring in tropical-inspired pillows and vibrant colours even solid colours.
I also think that the textures as well like area rugs and jute, woven baskets or rattan accents, things like that. Again, visually, it's going to give me the feeling of tropical. If we look at sound, sound is quite obvious. You can play your favourite music. I have a tabletop water feature in my house as well. In the wintertime, at least I can still hear the trickling water and again, it gives me maybe a mild feeling that there's an ocean somewhere.
Erin: Yes, right. It's a great backdrop for meditation or, as you say, for yoga as well. It's so grounded.
Steven: Absolutely, yes. If we're still talking senses then there's some smell which is very easy. Personally, for me, I use a lot of aroma therapy. I have a lot of oil diffusers. If you're burning scents like Vanilla, Jasmine, and Sandalwood, all you have to do is close your eyes and you can literally be projected anywhere because smell is one of the strongest sense, right?
Steven: Also, never underestimate the joy of tropical flowers. Just a small injection of them in your home and flowers have a positive impact on emotional health. We all know that. If you think of touch or taste, you can combine them together. If I can't travel, then I'm going to indulge in purchasing and cooking with fantastic tropical ingredients, coconuts, mangoes. Then doing a lot of really fantastic Caribbean curry recipes and the house is going to smell like fantastic curry. Even just plain tropical fruit in a bowl, that can already lift your spirits. Every time you walk in the kitchen, you can see gorgeous exotic dragon fruits. I just love how it looks. Simple things like that. Again, it's like the senses.
Erin: We're talking tech in just a moment. If Steven Sabados is writing your designing spark, check out realtor.ca Living Room. It's got what you're looking for. From market trends and home improvement to DIY hacks and design inspiration. Find everything you and your clients need in one place at realtor.ca/ Living Room. Now, back to our chats with Steven. How is technology going to continue to change the home of 2021? We've seen so many changes. You've talked about that ginormous TV that people have brought in so they can binge everything that they want. How do you see us moving forward into 2021?
Steven: I think technology is leaps and bounds. It's going so quickly and as a reaction to obviously, of the situations with COVID, which I can become this mainstay in the home like clean technology or clean tech, is going to be just another norm in our homes. We're not even going to ask for it, it's going to be included, simple every day are already in place. Like the touchless faucets was in place years ago and that was just to help us in the kitchen. By the way, it was a little kitchen helper. Our hands are full of pastry dough so we touch the faucet with our elbow and it turns on and everyone's happy.
Now we don't want to touch the faucet because I don't want to put germs on the faucet or vice versa. I would say touchless' everything. We don’t have to touch anything anymore. Automatic sensors to flush toilets, that's already in the marketplace now. You can install the suction to your toilet. Just wave your hand and the toilet flushes. That's probably a lot of fun for kids. They're going to be flushing just waving their hands over.
Doors that open, that they're not going to have to touch the door handles and things of that nature. This one I found really interesting. It's on the marketplace, these two things. One is a portable closet they can get. This is probably going to be a concept that you can now probably get installed into the closets in your front hall. After coming into your home and you hang your jacket up, you take shoes off, and you put it in a closet, you zip it up and it disinfects your clothing from whatever may have attached on it from the outside, which I find is like wild. It's very George Jetson. Also, anti-microbial LED lighting that goes under your counter like undercounter lighting.
At night time, you turn on the, it's almost like a black light and it disinfects your countertops while you sleep. Not to replace cleaning, but this technology again just helps fight against bacteria. Air purification, the ventilation system. I think with all of this technology, aren't you seeing why we want to go back to biophilia and bring some plants and nature into our home? Because we're becoming again living in these little bubbles these microcosms. We're living in a little terrarium. Let's make it green and don't forget nature because we're being bombarded by technology.
Erin: The flip side to that technology is, of course, tradition, and the things that we've carried through in our lives for centuries and even millennia. We've had to reinvent a lot of them in the last year to follow public health guidelines, stay home, stay safe. Do you see a potential, Steven, for new more virtual traditions to take root?
Steven: I definitely think so. These new traditions are going to be just again tradition. We're inviting more and more people into our homes and oddly enough, we're inviting them more virtually. It's going to become a tradition that maybe you don't need to socialize in big groups anymore because big groups are going to become these virtual groups and these dinners and whatnot. We're going to be focusing on our space and what reflects us. A lot of things saw the changing but interestingly changing.
Erin: Well, let's talk about design trends and what is standing out to you this year. Are we seeing big changes, more of the same? What are you seeing, Steven?
Steven: I think that the biggest and we all know the Pantone colour year like gray and bright yellow, which is I think an interesting concept but very hard to decorate around these two colours. Then there's a lot of natural colours. There's this projection saying the colour of the year for 2022 looks like it would be like an olive green. Again, colours found in nature. Even olive green is a very trendy colour right now. I think as a whole, we're going to be embracing a lot of nature and all things natural. We're going to really embrace everything artisanal. We want things that are made by humans for humans.
I think we're going to enjoy the imperfections of life that we want to be surrounded by that. Like furniture that wasn't made by a robot in a factory. Here's where the carpenter was carving something and maybe it's not perfect but we want it not to be perfect. We want to celebrate the human touch, that artisanal feel. Even things that you're looking at, say flooring, for instance. A huge, huge trend now is to have blond light-coloured natural flooring where I can see the grain, I can see the wood knots, I can see the imperfections on the floor. We don't want to have a floor that may look like wood, but it's actually a laminated plastic. More than not, we are looking for things that humans have touched, which is great.
Erin: What are you seeing with the rise of home offices then?
Steven: I don't know about you but my home office is my house, is everywhere. It's anywhere you are with your laptop. The home office, it needs to be, obviously, flexible because we're not really in an office anymore. The home office can be your sofa, could be anywhere but interesting enough, that convertible furniture is so on the rise. Convertible furniture for anyone that doesn't know, it's furniture that has multi-use. Fantastic things like a coffee table that has hydraulics that will lift up to a desk height. Fantastic things like work spaces and desk that completely fold away into a wall like a Murphy bed.
You can literally have a makeshift office anywhere. As we had mentioned before, I think the biggest thing is lighting because we need to make sure that we have appropriate and proper lighting for a workstation. If you are working from home I know, for me, personally, that you need a proper ergonomic chair. I would say invest in a chair. If you are going to be working from home, don't try and prop yourself up on that wooden bar stool. You're going to fidget and you're going to be less productive. Get something that still feels like an office, but not necessarily. You don't have to recreate your office.
Erin: That's interesting.
Steven: Because you will be working from home more.
Erin: Yes, give your body the impression that yes, this is the work chair. This isn't watching somebody make a lasagna. You're working and this is the chair for it. Interesting. I hadn't thought of that convertible coffee table as a desk. A lot of people use it for dining in front of the TV, which I think probably everybody does now but yes, as a desk and lots of room to spread out and two laptops if you need or whatever. Great idea.
Steven: Yes, for sure.
Erin: No matter what chair you're sitting in right now, you can always find a spot at the CREA café. It's a cozy place for realtors to connect, share thoughts, and stay up-to-date on the latest industry happenings over a virtual cup of coffee. Join the conversation at creacafe.ca. Now, back to our chat with Steven Sabados and back to bringing in nature and having nature surrounding us. Sounds good, right? How does nature and sustainability, how do they fit in?
Steven: Essentially, because we have been at home and we've become used to and accepting of recycling, upcycling things of that nature. We're looking around the house and we're like, okay, well, I've got this, this and that and maybe I can do X, Y, and Z with that. I know, personally, I was receiving a lot of requests and I did a lot of Internet shows and things on just ways to upcycle.
Look around things in your house and let's see how can we rethink or reuse that? Upcycling is definitely one of the top 10 Pinterest searches. Before recycling, upcycling was, "It's okay, we're just on the side," but now it's being celebrated and it's being accepted even more so. Which is really good again — sustainability.
Erin: Do you see it as a permanent change, Steven, or a temporary solution during an unprecedented time? Or is it like Zoom? It's something we hadn't given much thought to but guess what? It's opened up the doors to a whole new lifestyle. How do you see it?
Steven: Yes, I believe this new importance and respect for home as a place or a sanctuary, is definitely here to stay, which is fantastic. We're in our homes and we're living in our homes. Not just living. TV lifestyle programming is booming. Consumers are looking to educate themselves not only for DIY repairs but renovation, cooking, decorating, you name it. I think a lot of people want to get it right or at least get it right for them.
Millennials are really driving the force on decor and design in that sense because they want to personalize it. There isn't really-- It's very interesting when you go through the gamut of decorating and things like that, it's personal. There really is no style. You can't say the style of the '80s, the style of the '70s. We all know what they look like and they can immediately pop it into our heads and we get a visual.
What are you going to say the style that's for 2020? Or even for just this last decade, it's really personal. You're having a mismatch of mid-century modern and maybe something that your grandma had and this old thing. I'm going to personalize that and I'm going to make a quirky but it's my quirky and I'm going to own this. I think that's cool because, again, this is my home and if you don't like it, I don't care but I love it and that represents me and my family in the way we like to live in our home.
Erin: Well, the time that you do care is when you're marketing your home, of course. Do you foresee this shift affecting the way that we build and market our homes?
Steven: Well, interesting because if you look at the blueprints of a home, it's like here's the dining room, here's bedroom number two. I think that we can create any room or any space because we had to and, now, I think our home and how we are marketing it, how it should be but here's the space. Here's what I did but here's what you can do. Then recreate it as such because, I don't know, I would find it hard when you're seeing a space and it's like here's one-bedroom plus den. Well, why is that a den? Maybe it's, I don't know, my gym. It's not necessarily the spare bedroom. I don’t need a spare bedroom. I want to make it this. Everyone talks about when they're going for resale pick up the personality of the homeowner. I get it to a degree, but I think the personality inspires me. I would love to see how someone reflected their space.
Erin: What impact have these changes had on design experts like yourself? The importance of home in the last year or so? Or perhaps you've always had this mindset, Steven, but has that shifted anything in you as a creator?
Steven: For me, personally, because I design a lot of furniture, there was a time, there still is, a market for large furniture with a lot of bells and whistles. You know what I mean, and things of that nature that's going to really make a big statement, I think, now because we have to be price-sensitive more so than ever, we’re paring back a lot of the details. We're not really needing them as much anymore because we also know as a consumer and as a designer as well that that's going to add extra cost. I think the biggest thing more than ever now, comfort is key.
Comfort is huge because we're now living in our space and I do hope that we're going to be less gravitating towards disposable things like disposable furniture, disposable whatever. We're going to buy something that was handmade, that's artisanal and that's going to be in our homes for generations, hopefully, to come.
Erin: Yes, hopefully. While we're talking about the future, we needn't go as far as generations, but take us to the end of this year, Steven. Flash forward to December 2021, what words do you hope will describe this year?
Steven: I'm really hoping and I think one of the biggest ones for me that comes out is kindness. I think we were forced to be a little more patient, a little kinder, not so busy, not so hurried. Now it's okay when you drive up and there's a line at the grocery store. You're like, yes, okay. Whereas before, I'd be like, "What's going on? Well, I'm not going to wait. I don't have time to wait. I can't wait." It's like, "No, I'll wait." Optimism, for sure, as well because I think we need that. We all need to be optimistic like I'll get through this. Everyone else says that. We'll get through it.
Because of that, it gives us the faith. I think all those words go together, kindness, optimism, faith. The other one that I have that there is rebuild, which we're rebuilding everything. We're rebuilding how we think as a community, as a family, rebuilding everything around us even our homes. We can be optimistic and be positive and we can still have I think most importantly, a really good sense of humor because out of this, yes it was tough, but man, we got through it. There were some funny moments and obviously, not to underestimate the devastating moments and what have you but we have to remain optimistic.
Erin: Indeed, and what a beautiful optimistic note on which to end our chat and to begin our year here at CREA REAL TIME. I'm so grateful, we all are, to you, Steven, for sharing your insights and your wisdom and the comfort of talking to you. It's been lovely. Thank you so much.
Steven: Thank you so much, Erin. It's an absolute pleasure talking to you and sharing this. I hope this does give it a bit of a bright life for the year to come. It's going to be a very, very positive good year.
Erin: Remember, you can catch up with Steven's creations including his studio collection @stevensabados.com. Let's make 2021 a year of success, comfort, good health, and great ideas. We're here to help you with that wherever we can. REAL TIME is produced by Rob Whitehead and Real Family Productions and Alphabet Creative. I'm Erin Davis and we'll talk to you again soon. Don't forget to subscribe.