Noticing Your Grip: Creative Leadership in the Modern Workplace – Dale Allen

Dale Allen: You don't want to learn to swim when you're drowning, so it's what you do now. This is why I'm saying about desire, oftentimes, I'm working with people, and they want the change, but they don't want to do the work because it's not crisis time yet. I'm saying, don't wait until there's a crisis. You really do need to practice.

Shaun: I love it. Welcome. This is so exciting, guys. Are you guys stoked to see a live podcast now? No fights are going to break out. This is going to be like-- We're just going to have a great conversation. I've so enjoyed doing this podcast over the last year and a half now. We're so excited to have Dale Allen. Dale, first of all, why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are, what your company is, what your passion is, and let's talk about leadership. I'm stoked to talk about leadership.

Dale: Sounds good. I am Dale Allen. I've been called many things, but Dale is my name. My company is called ConsciousLead, and I have a real ache for being around people, working with people, connecting with people who want to do things with people, like understand how people work. I just think that it's a bit of a tragedy, in many organizations, that we can do this stuff, where we're leading people, we have to make decisions with people yet we might not take the time and create the space to really understand how people work.

Sometimes, just because we have a leadership title, we can assume that we understand how people work, and I think that that can be a myth. I love, and I am telling you, I'm committed to, and have an ache for when people understand that that part's important.

Shaun: Yes, I think it is. I feel like, in the world, if you're an ambitious person at all, and you want to achieve great things, a lot of people spend a lot of time in their own head, right? We're spending lots of time, as creative people, thinking about, "Okay, I want to do this. I want to achieve this, but I'm really thinking about I, I, I," and we're not focusing on the people around you and what you need to get out of them, I guess, in order to help you achieve the things that you want to achieve, right?

Dale: Yes.

Shaun: I want to ask you a bit about that because I'm pretty stoked now. I've gone from being-- I'm an actor and a comedian. I do all this creative stuff, but I've now taking a much more entrepreneurial role, and I've created my own company now. It's called Lafboy Films. I want to be the leader of this company, but I know I need to get better at being a leader. Why don't we talk a bit about that?

You have an interesting approach. I hear you have something called a brain-based [chuckles] approach to leadership. Thank God, because when I think about AI has taken over the world, I'm like, "Thank God, this is going to be an organic, wet brain approach to leadership." Explain a bit about that. What do you mean by that?

Dale: Yes. Some years ago, we had-- I've been coaching for 21 years, so my partner and I have had this business. Some years ago, we started to really study neuroscience and understand the impact of what it means to be together, the impact that we are having on each other right now. I was thinking about whether you have clients or you're looking at your own team or your team at home, the fact that we are actually always in response to people's brains.

If their brain is in a threat state, then it closes. It can't open to the ideas that we have, to what we want to share with them. I've got two kids, so I know that for sure.

Shaun: I've got two kids.

Dale: You know what it's like, right?

Shaun: How old are your kids now?

Dale: 16 and 18.

Shaun: Oh, wow. Mine are 4 and 6.

Dale: Oh, it's so yummy.

Shaun: Yes, so yummy.

Dale: That's also where it started for us, too. Our children are young, and we were really understanding how the brain works so that we could be really great parents for them. It makes me think that if all of us here, of course, we've got brains, right? Yes, you're with me on that one, so we do. It's that anytime we walk into a room, anytime we walk into a conversation, as we wake, our brain is always scanning our environment for a threat or a reward.

Just in knowing that, to me, I think it's so important for us to know how do we actually help ourselves when our brain is in a threat state in a given moment. It can happen. We can go into a threat state like that.

Shaun: It's a blink.

Dale: Oh, yes, and we don't even know it. To me, it's like if we understood that principle, and then we looked at, then, how do I know when my colleague or a client or another board member or whichever is in that threat state, even for a blink? What would I do differently then to invite them into a state where they could be more open, they could hear what I have to offer? In particular, when things are challenging. I always say leadership shows up when things are challenging. When life's easy--

Shaun: Oh, when life's easy, man, it's like I am-- I've always joked around about this. I feel like I can be full enlightened Buddha when I am by myself, and there's not another input around me. I have no influence. Then you put me on the highway, and someone cuts me off when I'm merging, or they don't merge, all of a sudden, I'm getting triggered, or my partner, she says something that affected me 15 years ago. Then all of a sudden, this thing comes up.

I'm here preaching to her about being calm and don't lead with fear, and here I am freaking out inside about being fearful. It's so hard to be a human, to have a brain. It's really hard. When you apply that to your team, and when you're thinking about that, I heard you say something just now, which I find interesting. A lot of it that I've worked on as a parent has been about my own awareness of my own reactions to things. When you talk about how can I get a client or a team member in that same headspace, what are the tools that you use to get them there so that they are open to hearing your leadership style? Talk to me about that.

Dale: I'm glad you asked because I've got my toolbox. I don't [crosstalk] I was actually thinking about this because I got to meet with some people before from CREA, and I was sharing with them. I do have a process. I absolutely do. One of the things I'll say is I'm going to name some steps because we like steps, don't we? Everyone's like, step 1, you do this, you be aware.

I suppose it is that, though. I think it is about being aware. I think before that, even if I was to give you the steps, I think that we need a desire. We've gone through this life, for example, without knowing about the brain, let's just say. We've gone through our businesses, and we've parented and we've been partners to our spouses or whatever. We've gone through life just fine. I think it starts with desire. What I notice is it's just like when I used to personal train as well. I would give people their program. Then I was like, "Oh, that's not it. If you can Google it, then you don't need me." That way To me, you need to have a desire to want to lead in a way that has people's brains open. It really does start there.

Shaun: Wait, back up. You're saying you want to have a desire to lead in a way that opens people's brain?

Dale: Which is really like opening their hearts, right?

Shaun: Right, right. Having the desire. You have to start from that place?

Dale: You do. The reason why I was saying that is because sometimes people will say, brain-based leadership or even coaching or doing leadership development, some people don't want to do it. If you've ever worked with anyone where you're like, they're just not going to do it. That's so normal. It's just like in school, right? There's a certain percent of the population who is going to do the work, right? We have to honor that that's true for us. The desire becomes important because, in an organization, there'll be about 20%. It's the Pareto principle, just like in anything else.

Shaun: What is that? Can you explain that?

Dale: The Pareto principle, it's the 80-20 rule. It applies in everything. When you look at behavior, for example, or anything that you see in our life where you go, 80% of the people will do the general way, and the 20% will be the ones who will do something different. That's what I find here, too. There'll be 20% when I work with a team, 20% of the folks will do the work. It's just how it goes. You'll see that, even if you look at your teams now-- I don't mean that other people aren't working. I just mean you'll see the difference in terms of who is like, "Yes, let's go, let's do it," because it's work.

Again, if I was to give you all a fitness program, which I could, we could do squats right now. That's what I usually do. It totally is my thing. A little jump with that, too. You see? Next level, you see?

Shaun: I love it. I love it. I feel good already. Yes, keep going. I love that idea. When it gets back to desire, it gets 80-20. Then you lead by example, but how do you bring that out of your team?

Dale: Right. Here's what I've noticed in looking at the stats, though, is then those 20% are the ones that you want to feed because everyone's having an impact, right? If I keep developing them, then the way that they interact with folks who might be, like, later adopters or might not be interested at all in doing what it takes maybe to move the organization forward. It just means that everyone's got a role. What happens with that 20%, I find, is that if I keep nurturing them, then how everyone else interacts with them, their interactions shift.

Change is still happening anyway. It's so beautiful. If they're not fed, then what happens is people, the 80% say how they are, and the 20% are trying to figure it out. There, if we develop them, then when they're interacting with others, you'll just watch. They're already shifting the dynamic. That's another thing I discovered over 21 years and over, I don't know, 10,000 people that I've been coaching. You just start to see that that's the way to cause a change. Not everyone has to jump on.

Shaun: Desire is important. Easier said than done.

Dale: Totally.

Shaun: I think that's a big thing. Then, if I am a part of, let's say, the 20% of that group, I want to affect change with my team. What if the team just isn't coming this way? How do you manage that? I understand you have something called cognitive flexibility. I want to talk a little bit about that. I find that to be really an important piece.

Dale: Yes. Desire is one. We talked there. I just want to go to that, and I'll lead you to-- I want to weave in what you were saying about cognitive flexibility. Desire is needed because if we want to change something, we have to see who has the desire for the change. Then we want to see who has the desire to do the work for the change. We can have the ache for it, we have the desire for it to change, but we don't want to do the work. Then that's really natural. That happens. All the time.

I want to focus on the folks who want to do the work. What happens with that is, it's just like, again, if you can just imagine at home, all of us are someone's children. They're someone's child. If we look at when your sibling, actually, you were doing all the work and your other sibling wasn't, does that happen? Were you the one who wasn't doing the work? I don't know. I'm not calling anyone out. When you see those kinds of imbalances, what you notice is that that can create tension.

That's why us understanding the brain becomes important, because how do I then support folks when they're meeting resistance from other people? Our ability as leaders to understand how do I coach you, how do I still support you, and how do I still support the rest of my team, becomes so important because you're actually really balancing resistance and resistance, actually, right?

Shaun: Yes.

Dale: Cognitive flexibility to me is that, in coaching, in learning, how to understand how people react to things, how to understand what are their drivers, their motivations. When you understand that, then you can look at, "Oh, how do I then coach? Is there any Johns?" I always use John and Janes. If you're a John and a Jane, I love you because you've made my life really, really simple.

How do I coach John over here? Really, I'm just coaching John because John's dealing with resistance. I'm helping him work through resistance. Over here, I've got people who are seeming like resistors, but that's okay. That's also part of it, too. They might not understand what it's going to take or see that as the way. Look at what is the way to understand their motivations as well as the motivations over here. That becomes our skill. That helps us, our brain, our mind, be more flexible. That's why cognitive flexibility is not my word. I wish I made it up. I didn't.

Shaun: Is that a cultural thing? Is there something cultural about that in terms of the way we're brought up? I imagine, in some societies, there's a certain way of being. It's like, "This is strict. If you do not do it this way, then we don't want you." Then people fall away. You're taking a much more empathetic approach to managing a team. Have you seen that in your studies and seen some cultures, they do it a certain way, but then it might create a certain vibe within a team?

I'm very positive and very optimistic. I want everybody to be on the same page. I want to lift everybody up. However, that doesn't always happen. Sometimes, does it mean, are we getting the best results as well?

Dale: Totally. I think that the desire, again, going back to desire and then our awareness. Now we've got the ache to support people with the change. Then we build the awareness for folks. We help people be aware of what it is that they need to do. I think we need to help people be aware of how they work through resistance, how they work through people's fear. When we do that, then we're like, "Okay, now we've got something."

When you're talking about cultural, the one thing that I'd say, and this is what I love about the brain, is it doesn't matter where you're from, how long you've been on the planet. Your brain still is either going through threat or reward in a moment. Our motivations are what's consistent between us, the same with the way our brain responds. That's why I think it's so foundational to know.

Shaun: It's so universal.

Dale: Oh, yes. Absolutely, it is. Really, we're looking at what are the motivators. If this 20% is so, so, so keen to support the change, it's like they have internal motivators. The people who aren't, they also have internal motivators. How do we have the motivations talk as opposed to it's my way or the highway, right? If we talk about the motivations, it's like, "You've got a need for efficiency?"

"Cool. So do I."

"Oh, you think that's the only way to do it? What about this one?"

It's just like we usually argue or where the conflict happens is because our strategies to meet our needs, our motivations are different. Just the strategy, but the reason, the motivations are the same. We both want to do this effectively.

Shaun: Yes, end goal, same journey, maybe a little different based on personality, upbringing, whether you ate that morning. You could be tired, you didn't sleep, your kid would have kept you up all night.

Dale: Exactly. If you sift through all of that, that becomes a distraction to what the goal is. That's what often happens in leadership is we're like, "I really love what Shaun said. Oh, but I loved what Dale said. Ooh, how do I--" We're getting caught and distracted by that, where it's like--

Shaun: Right, details.

Dale: Yes, totally. In leadership, it's like we can't afford that distraction. It'll take us away from us moving forward.

Shaun: Is this resonating with you guys in terms of your teams? I really don't know necessarily what the inner workings of everybody's teams would be, but I think it's applicable across the board, no matter what kind of team or what kind of business you're in. What are the positive effects on the entire team when leadership is conscious, creative, and flexible? What would you say? Talk a bit about that. About how that impacts the entire--

Dale: About being conscious?

Shaun: Conscious, flexible, and creative. Creativity is something you may not think of immediately when you think of business, but talk about creativity when it comes to leadership, how important it is to be creative.

Dale: The other day, I was with a team, and the leader was explaining that they're super stuck because they just had people. Right now, in this particular place, they're downsizing, and they're having a really hard time. You can imagine, and I just would love to hear from you all, but when you're downsizing, if you can just imagine it, if it's not been your reality, but what do you think shows up in the team, amongst team members, when you're about to announce that you're downsizing or right-sizing. Let's say if you're splitting an organization or some people are going to lose their footing because they might not be doing what they were doing before? I would love to hear from you.

Shaun: Yes, yell it out. What do you think, what comes up?

Dale: Yes, fear.

Speaker 3: Anxiety.

Dale: Anxiety. What do you think happens between people?

Speaker 3: Jealousy, conflict.

Speaker 6: Competitive.

Dale: Competitive, jealousy, conflict. What did you say over here?

Speaker 7: Tension.

Dale: Tension. Remember, I was saying earlier that leadership shows up when there's a challenge? Because really, then it's how am I going to be during tension, fear, anxiety, challenge? How do I lead in that moment? That's where creativity comes in. How can I create with what is happening? That can be challenging.

My parents are Jamaican, and when I wanted to give me a recipe for soup or something, my mom will say, "Oh, Dale, you just need a little bit of salt and a little bit of--" I'm like, there is no measuring cup that says a little bit. In fancy places like maybe at Lee Valley or something, there is, but there isn't actually one. I always think of creativity and leadership means what's the ingredient that is needed right now? What do I need a little bit more of when there's fear and anxiety and challenge?

This is where I find if we don't have that consciousness, if we don't have that practice of understanding internal motivators, understanding the messages that people say in between, it's like how do I read between the lines? If I get too caught in details, then I end up being more of a mediator instead of actually someone helps people lead through what's going on and make decisions that are supportive of themselves.

People can have agency to figure out what they need to do. It's more about can I inspire them to make the move that is the healthiest for them and for their client, their colleague, or whomever. When there's fear, and it's really high, the brain shuts down.

Shaun: Oh, shuts down.

Dale: Big time, big time, big time. It's like, how do I get this thought in that this person might see it as something that they could do to move? Consciousness, I need to be aware of how people are in fear. Their brain is closing. They can't take the information. What would it compel us to do then to have people open where their brain's like, "Yes, give it to me. Tell me. Tell me what you got for me, Dale. How do I do that?" How we ask questions in those moments really matter.

Shaun: If we can talk about fear for a second, because fear is one of those things, like you say, closes up, shuts down. My biggest criticism of myself is, and I think this is in relationships too, and with my kids, I'm sure it applies in leadership. If someone comes to me with a stressful situation, I'm a problem solver, so I want to say right away, "Well, this is what you need to do," or "This is how to get it done."

Sometimes they don't want a solution. They just want to be heard. Does that also apply in business and in leadership with teams? Acknowledging their fear and allowing them to be inside of the fear as opposed to saying, "No, no, no, don't be fearful. Don't worry. It's all going to be good. You got nothing to worry about." The person is freaking out inside. How do you manage that?

That's an emotional thing that you're obviously not going to get inside that fear clump by trying to solve the problem right away. It sounds like you want some time where they can finally be open. How do you get through that moment, and what do you do, especially if you're on a time crunch?

Dale: Someone said this to me the other day. I loved their feedback when I was sharing this, but they just said, "You don't want to learn to swim when you're drowning." It's what you do now. This is why I'm saying about desire. Oftentimes, I'm working with people, and they want the change, but they don't want to do the work because it's not crisis time yet. I'm saying, "Don't wait until there's a crisis. You really do need to practice."

I think what happens is when you have a client or a colleague who's in high fear where you experience that challenge or the anxiety, you've had that before, right? What do you think your best way to be with them is? You're feeling their tension, their anxiety, their fear. What's your way?

Shaun: Yell it out.

Speaker 4: Acknowledge, calm.

Dale: Acknowledge, calm, empathetic, supportive. How easy is it to do that when someone's in front of you, they're like, "Oh my gosh, I can't just believe this. This is really happening. I can't believe it. Oh my gosh, and you told me that this is what I'm supposed to do"? What usually naturally happens to you?

Dale: Yes, you elevate. You see why this is a you thing, right? I always say if there's someone spicy or they've got fire and I had fire, what do we have more of? We got double the fire. I need to dose my own. This is what conscious leadership is about. It's how can I regulate when someone's going like, "No, no, come with me up here. It's really fun." You're like, "No, no, no, I really don't want to. I just did the session with you all and Shaun. Shaun was reminding me about zenning myself, and all I want to do is throw some bombs."

The practice matters. We learn to regulate even when someone else is going high. If we don't, then we are outside of what's called our window of tolerance, actually. This is where my capacity is, and I am above capacity. I need a way back.

Shaun: Where are places that we can practice this?

Dale: You could come hang out with me for one. Really, coaching is helpful. I'm not saying that you need to do that with me. You might want to do it with Shaun because he's going to be more-- I'm fun too, and I can do the splits. I don't know if Shaun can, but--

Shaun: I can do splits.

Dale: You can do the splits, then come with me then. You're going to have more fun.

Shaun: Yes, for sure. Splits, wins, every time.

Dale: You practicing your own awareness and one of the things that you can do is when you are with someone who is highly charged, even if you do this afterwards, if you write down, if you just look at, what was it? Can I pinpoint what was the exact thing that was charging them? What was it that triggered them? What was it that activated them? That's where I find it's really difficult for many people.

People say to me, John's always like that. Sorry, John. Any John's in your story. John's always like that. He always does that. I watch for language like that. Imagine what happens when we say that about John? John's always like this. A little louder.

Speaker 5: John believes it.

Dale: John believes it. Exactly. How does John treat that person? This is what I'm saying about consciousness. We'll treat them exactly how we believe them to be. There's no room for anything else. We're not conscious of what else is possible with this person. It's our own bias in essence. Again, if we understand motivations, we would go, "I can sift through all of what John was saying and go, 'Okay, John has a need for support. That's interesting.'" Went about it a little funky.

He was yelling, and he was wanting support. I don't want to support him. That's what we want to do is we want to see, "Do we understand internal motivations and what it creates?" Really, just how our thinking then creates what we say, which creates our behaviors out in the world.

Shaun: I think we always are comparing, contrasting, and then drawing from our own lives all the experiences that we've had as individuals. We see John, he's having a little bit of a freak out for whatever reason. Then we want to try to understand where they're coming from. As a parent, as a new dad, honestly, one of these things, this idea, I've read this book called Good Inside, but this idea that you assume that the other person's intentions, they're not coming from a bad place. It's actually calling out for something that they need.

What is the need that they need right now? Acknowledging that and saying, "Listen, you're not a bad person because you threw that binder across and you broke that plant." It's not proper behavior, and probably would be let go. You know what I mean? Assuming that where they're coming from, finding the good place that they're coming from, and how can I help with that issue? We are highly charged individuals.

How do you manage somebody? It's also a workplace scenario. It's not simply in your human relationships, which all applies, but in a workplace scenario where you have a certain level of standards, practices, behavioral expectations at the office within the team. If someone goes far outside that, how would you advise leaders to manage that?

Dale: It still is the same to me, though, because it still is a human response. That is a question I get often. People say, "So-and-so was so unprofessional." I was like, "What did they do?" They're so human that they got angry. Even if the way that they got angry, they threw the binder and broke the plant. It still is anger, and it still needs the same response. To me, it's not about condoning behavior at all. It's actually more that I need to understand what the need is.

What's the internal motivator that created the anger? Actually, I want them to understand it. I want to coach in a way that you tell me what you were really looking for there.

Shaun: That's interesting. Using questions is a good thing. "John, you're always like this. John, tell me more." Take me through actually script. What would you say to somebody in that situation?

Dale: I don't actually have a script, but I can do it. Can someone tell me a challenge that they've had? You could, too, if you want.

Shaun: Let me see, what's a good challenge I've had? You gave Steve the promotion, but I feel like I've been working as hard, if not harder. Why am I not getting the due that I'm owed?

Dale: What is it that you-- I'd love for you to just share with me, what are all of the things when you think about this job, if you were to get the promotion?

Shaun: Look at the numbers. Yes, it's all numbers. I've got numbers. I've seen his numbers. Plus, he's obsessed with his car all the time. He's outside doing his car, and he smokes. I'm not doing that. I'm even putting in the hours.

Dale: Let's stay with you, though.

Shaun: Yes. I'm just saying, though, because compared to him, it's all--

Dale: I don't want you to compare yourself to him. I want you to tell me--

Shaun: I can't help it because he's the one who got the thing.

Dale: He's not even here.

Shaun: I got another baby on the way, and I didn't even know about it. This person showed up from Scarborough and told me about this 10 years ago thing that happened.

Dale: This is what happens when you're clubbing. I'm not going to diss you for clubbing because I like a good clubbing.

Shaun: Yes, I liked clubbing, too, back in the day.

Dale: I want you to stay with me here for a second.

Shaun: Okay, I'm just really high right now.

Dale: This is what I noticed. Your clubbing got you another gift of a baby, which is beautiful.

Shaun: You call it a gift. I call it a debt.

Dale: I guess this is really about how you actually figure out what you want to do next. You're looking at this promotion, and you're wondering why you didn't get it.

Shaun: Yes, exactly. Exactly.

Dale: I just want you to track with me for just a moment, just so that I can really be here with you. I want you to share with me what are all of the things, all of the reasons why you know that you deserve it.

Shaun: I look at my numbers. I put so much energy in getting these numbers up. I look at the stats, and I've always been there. You know that I'm here at 5:00 in the morning every day. I don't understand why.

Dale: What's the part? What do you think is missing? What do you think?

Shaun: I don't know. Maybe it's true. At home, I've been feeling really stressed out, too. I've been very anxious. The cost of living is going up. There's wars all over the world. I don't even know what to do.

Dale: I know. I just want you to take a breath for just a moment. I get the war thing, but let's just stay here because it is--

Shaun: Maybe I'm catastrophizing.

Dale: I'm listening to you, and I'm hearing about wars and all of that, and Steve getting the promotion.

Shaun: Don't say his name.

Dale: I know. We won't. We'll call him John because I find that's just really-- John's a safe word.

Shaun: Call him John, I like to call him jerk.

Dale: Stay with me. John, yes, breathe. Good. I'm hearing you talk about cost of living.

Shaun: Cost of living, pressures at home, new kid on the way that it was like she's actually 15. I have no idea. She showed up.

Dale: You've got some catch-up to do?

Shaun: I got some catch-up to do.

Dale: What you're really concerned about isn't the promotion. It's that you-- What? Tell me.

Shaun: That's right. It is. It's probably more about just all the outside stuff. I see when jerk gets--

Dale: We're not even focused. He's not even here. We're not even going to say his name, even. How about that? If he does, I'm out. If you really want your help, then…

Shaun: I'm sorry and all. I just want to be seen. I feel like I want to get the due that I deserved. I was third-line goalie, too. That was frustrating. I didn't even start. This goes back further. Oh, this is deeper than what I thought.

Dale: Do you see? Do you think maybe if we focused on you just being so present to what's happened, and it sounds like with your 15-year-old showing up, saying she wants to be in your life, and this other person.

Shaun: No, you know what? You know what you've helped me do right now? You're helping me work through the true core issue. It isn't about the person who got the promo. It's about--

Dale: You did so well. Can we just take a moment of silence for you being able to do that? It's really good.

Shaun: Thank you so much. Oh, my God. I'm recognizing this isn't even about the promotion.

Dale: It's not about the promotion.

Shaun: Well, listen, I'm still going to keep working as hard as I can here at the library, being an organizer.

Dale: I'm so glad.

Shaun: Thank you so much for helping me through this.

Dale: Earlier, when you were mentioning the goalie thing, maybe this year's your year. I don't know.

Shaun: Oh, I like that.

Dale: It doesn't matter that you're--

Shaun: I'm going to do peyote for the first time.

Dale: Why don't we slow down a little bit?

Shaun: I like this. This is great role play. I feel good. Did you guys learn something there? I did. I learned that I have a kid that I didn't even know about.

Dale: We just want to see you do right by your kid.

Shaun: I'm going to. She deserves a good dad, a half-dad. I'm not even sure yet. I got to go to Maury Povich and get a test on him. We're going to see. Listen, I love that, and I love that process. I think that's--

Dale: Can we name it? What did you notice?

Shaun: Well, I noticed it all comes back to me. It all goes inward. It all goes into fears. What are my fears? There's a genuine frustration there sometimes. I think when people are trying so hard to get ahead and be their own leader in their own right, I guess recognition, acknowledgement, that is what everybody wants. If someone else gets it unfair, there's all this blame game. You're saying, though, that in those situations, if people are focusing on others, the energy, you kept bringing me back to myself.

Dale: Totally. Do you know why? Because anytime you talk about Steve, the power is all-- He's not even here, and there's nothing I can do, and there's nothing you can do. I understand it, but if I allow you to keep comparing yourself to him, you'll never measure up anyway. I don't have the magic wand for that, nor do you. When I was listening to you, I was like, "Is it the promotion? Is it really that?" I'm hearing that it is about being seen or heard, but I also think there's something about a sense of security. The promotion seemed like it represented some kind of security.

Shaun: Of insecurity to me, which really has nothing to do with me.

Dale: That's right. Nor with Steve. If I sense that if I had this promotion, then I would have the financial security to pay for my 15-year-old kid and to get back on that hockey game because I'm going to need, after being out for 20 years, I'm going to need--

Shaun: No more third line, bud. No more third line.

Dale: You're going to need new knees, all of that. To be able to pay for all of that to get that security, I could hear a sense of security that was needed. This is what I find. The more that we coach and understand, we can go, "Oh, right, my role isn't to then go, okay, I'm going to listen, and then, shoot, now, how am I going to give him the promotion? There's only one job. I like Steve a lot. I like Steve."

Shaun: I like Steve, too.

Dale: You didn't sound like it, but yes.

Shaun: No, we're fine. We play darts on Thursday. He's good.

Dale: Nice. I just don't want you to make him the target. This is the thing.

Shaun: I won't. Exactly. It's about helping your-

Dale: Darting his butt just is not going to look good.

Shaun: -client focus on them.

Dale: Totally, and what you can do. There's nothing that I could tell you that will satisfy you. When you were naming earlier, because sometimes we do this as leaders, where we go, oh, we listen, and we definitely want to listen to hear, but I'm listening for, what is his deeper motivation? What's his need? Why I could hear it was some sense of security. If I become the Oprah, you get a TV, and you get a TV, that doesn't help you figure out what it is for you. I create another job for you. Then you're there, and you're like, "That dang Steve, though." I'm doing the same thing and-

Shaun: It never ends.

Dale: It never ends. I don't want to get caught in there. I find that happens often, is that we get caught. We get caught in the story, and it's so addictive.

Shaun: We don't want to get caught in the story. Speaking of getting caught, I love this idea of noticing your grip as a leader. Explain that. We have about five minutes left before we have to move through it, but explain a bit about that, and then I want to wrap up with your final thoughts and tools that maybe everybody here can use.

Dale: Absolutely. When you were mentioning earlier, it's like you were asking if some things are cultural, right? I love the definition of culture as a people enacting a story.

Shaun: Love that.

Dale: We're just acting out a story that we believe, and it could be for whatever reason, our cultural background, it could be our age, it could be our birth order, it could be any reason, but it's our story that we enact. It really is our belief system. Sometimes, what I find, much like as we were doing that real play, is that the grip is like, you are holding on to, Steve is this, and Steve is that, and then I've got this 15-year-old, and I don't even know if Maury is going to want me on that show. Does Maurice even exist? I don't even know it. We grip onto something, actually believing that it's like we're actually moving, but actually, in ways, it's just keeping us stuck.

I was sharing that there's an image that I have when I think of this is I saw this meme, it was just the words, anyway. I had this image with it. The words are, "Let go, or you'll be dragged." I pictured a pickup truck with one of those thick ropes attached to it, and someone holding on. When you just need to let go, and you're not, so you're dragged all through the streets here, and you're all dusty and dirty, and you're like, "I don't know what's going on," and it's because we're holding on.

I often find that we grip onto things, thinking that it's the thing, it's going to help us, but we need to release, we need to let go. I often find that, in leadership, we will, we are like, "I believe it's supposed to be this way. My dad did it this way. My dad owned this organization and this is how we're going to do it," or, "I've learned those ways and I don't have the," as you were mentioning earlier, "the cognitive flexibility to go, 'Oh, look at me gripping.'" It's not the way, it's a way.

Shaun: That reminds me of my daughter on her T-bar for the first time. You know the T-bar? The little-- it's got this thing. She did that. She was, the first time on T-bar, she got on her skis, she held on to this thing here, and then it got away from her, and she would not let go. Then she was dreading, and I'm screaming, "Let go.-

Dale: Let go, oh.

Shaun: -let go." Then, when she let go, she was done with the T-bar-

Dale: I can imagine.

Shaun: -forever.

Dale: I imagine.

Shaun: I get it. It's the same idea. I think that's a great, easily thought of mechanism for moving forward.

Dale: Absolutely.

Shaun: As we close out, it's interesting. What I'm hearing you say is that, first of all, there's not one single way, and it's really all about being flexible, being creative in your leadership style, listening is a big thing, but it's not something-- I have a note here saying how leadership isn't something you necessarily achieve, but it's something you nourish and develop. Talk about that.

Dale: That's a similar thing. Again, leadership only shows up, it's really needed, when there's a challenge. I need to nourish my capacity to be with challenges in ways that doesn't create harm. Really, it's like leadership is really about how do I use my power? Am I exercising my power? Am I developing myself in a way that how I use my power, in particular when it's challenging?

Does it actually create an environment where people open? If we are in a 911 situation, an emergency situation, it really is about how am I using my power in that moment that allows people to move? That's what we need to do. We're taking care of people. I really think that if I was just to give steps, I think it would be that first we look at, do we have the desire to help create the change? One. Many people do.

Two, who are the ones who are willing to build the awareness needed so that I could be in this conversation with the clients, the John's of the world, especially when it's challenging. It doesn't matter what the challenge is. You don't have to read the book and create, "When they are talking about they have a 15-year-old, what do I do? It's on page 172." It's not like that. It's just that there is a tension. It's tension, anxiety, challenge, doubt, fear, worry.

When I see that, how do I want to be? I look at, am I listening for the need, or am I listening for their story? Listen for the need in their story. Then ask questions. Ask them. This is where it just takes time.

Shaun: Dude, that's a big one. Asking questions versus making statements. I find that with my kids. I'm too busy making statements. No, you don't want to do that. Versus, why do you want to do that?

Dale: Yes, or what will that give you?

Shaun: Oh, my God.

Dale: The one thing I would share just something for all of you, is when you ask a why question, like when you say, "Why did you do that?" Can you feel the energy of that? Why do you make that suggestion?

Shaun: It's a little judgy.

Dale: Totally. If you ask a what question, if you turn your why's into a what, like, "What did you get out of that?" or "What did you notice as a result of doing that?" You'll completely change people's reaction because the brain shuts down. A why is like, "Okay, I got to defend. Dukes up." That's what you can do.

Shaun: That's a good tool. That's a great tool. I'm also thinking about it with my kids, too. It's everything goes through my kids now because I want to be a good leader for my kids.

Dale: Totally.

Shaun: Well, this is amazing. We talk about pride. This is our big theme here today. Building pride in your organization. I think just by being great leaders, by being an empathetic leader, by being creative. This has been very insightful, Dale. I can't thank you enough. This has been a good-- I hope I didn't freak you out with my little role play.

Dale: You did great.

Shaun: I did party back in the day. That is true. I may or may not have made a baby with someone at Starbro in the '90s. I may find that out later. Also, I just want to leave with this. I'm going to try. I'm going to see how far down I can get. I can't get.

Dale: That's good.

Shaun: No, it's not good. That's not good.

Dale: You didn't split your pants. That's good.

Shaun: That's terrible. I am like, "That's amazing."

Shaun: Guys, let's hear it for Dale Allen on REAL TIME.

Dale: Thank you.

Shaun: Dale, oh my God, this is 

Dale: Thank you.

Shaun: Thank you so much, Dale. What a pleasure. She'll be around. Please hire her.

Dale: I'm with him. I like that. Thank you so much.

Shaun: All right. Be well. Be well.